Does Jim still...?

[quirky]

That's me too, Jayne.

Religion is a big conundrum to me. Maybe Jim has it right after all. While there *is* the New Testament, one cannot fully discount the old. My sister in law once told me, there is nothing bad in the Bible...but I think there are portions of the Old Testament which are iffy...in the sense that there is destruction and a lot of restriction.

God got mad at Adam and Eve and cursed them. Then again with the flood and the Tower of Babel he got mad. Why is my God always getting mad at his own creations? What if, at the tower of Babel...he just scattered all the puzzle pieces? And really there *is* some truth in most major religions which is simply perverted by man's interpretation of it?

[Janel]

God didn't get mad at Adam and Eve, they disobeyed a direct and simple command. What kind of Father lets His children disobey and then not follow through with what HE TOLD THEM was going to happen? I know that my credibility in the eyes of my children will be destroyed if I am not good on my word. I don't offer idle threats as a parent, and God was not offering an idle threat either.

He spoke through His prophets during the time of the Old Testament, and they were constantly telling the people what would happen if they disobeyed the word of God.

The restrictions that are listed in the OT are mainly for the preservation of the people (the Israelites). There are restrictions on foods that we now know carry bacteria and if not cooked at proper temperatures will make you very sick. There are actually regulations regarding where to go to the bathroom!!!!! OUTSIDE of the camp and it had to be covered with a shovel!!!!

God is fair, He doesn't get mad just to get mad. We can be assured of that. But He means what He says. Of that, we can be very sure. He sent His son to make a way--He knows we can't do it on our own. He also knows that we will try!! He does call us to accept the gift of His son, follow His ways as we come to understand them, and let Him be the center of all we are and do. He loves you, Quirk--He's not mad at you

[quirky]

He spoke through His prophets during the time of the Old Testament, and they were constantly telling the people what would happen if they disobeyed the word of God.

What about the tower of Babel? All these people trying to get closer to their God and he becomes angry. Like a deity with PMS.

Some things make sense, Janel. But others don't.

[searching_for_sunshine]

quirky,
i agree with your comment:
there *is* some truth in most major religions which is simply perverted by man's interpretation of it.

with man and human nature, there will most always be an underlying agenda. i truly think that some of the prophets or interpreters of the bible tried honestly to make it "palatable" to the average person, like in parables but i think (and more often in the interpretations) there were some liberties taken in just what was "meant" by each passage.

God, in MY interpretation is the same god of all religions. it's his disciples or name that change from religion to religion (ie: budha, muhamed, krishna, the great spirit, mother nature)

i think we'll all be really surprised when we find out what was true and what was made up.

[quirky]

In the meantime, I have a very good gay friend named Joel and tonight I'm going out to see him because it's been awhile. The treatment of homosexuality in the Bible bothers me, too. Because I honestly believe that some people are born that way. More of the curse? Or something about which it's time to say, "Hey...religion has made you feel really bad about this for a long time. That sense of low worth has led to many many destructive behaviors in your community when all you probably really want is a right to worship with everyone else and find your true love and have a wholly satisfying life."

Love the sinner, hate the sin? Is it really a sin if it's a biological thing? Because that's like saying mental retardation is a sin and no one would swallow THAT idea.

I'm a bit fiesty at the moment...I guess God will probably bring me low soon for my outburst.

[quirky]

Or not. Sometimes I get messages I think.

I opened my Bible tonight to the Book of Joel and just looked at the headline of today's paper and it's "Gay Issues Divide Church".

[Janel]

After the flood, God had told Noah and his sons to multiply and fill the earth. Genesis 11:4 tells how the descendants of Noah did not follow this command . They had gotten all settled and decided that they were going to stay and build the tallest tower ever as a symbol of their fame. A symbol to WHO?!!! They were the only ones around and it was up to them to fill the earth as the Lord commanded! Since they disobeyed (again) the Lord caused the languages to divide them so they would develop their own land and cultures. We would not have the beautifully diverse cultures and peoples today if this had not occured!

Homosexuality is so sensitive....churches and pastors and Christians have been so awful and so ......AWFUL. What they like to conveniently gloss over, however, is that the Bible singles out adultery, pride and lying as sin that will separate us from God WAY more often than it does homosexuality.....but because it is something that the average "church-goin' Republican" is uncomfortable with, it is singled out and made to somehow be worse that anything else. The Bible does not "treat" homosexuality different than any other sin. The Bible is clear that men and women were created for each other. No, I don't know why some have same sex persuasion. But the Bible does NOT single it out---CHURCHES have done that. And that is to their shame. Men who have cheated on their wives, people who lie to avoid trouble, people who think more highly of themselves because "at least they don't have THAT problem" line the pews every Sunday. God LOVES Joel and the man that Joel is in love with. And so should our churches. No matter where you are coming from, what makes you different inside or makes you think that God is mad at you or disgusted........seek Him....He will listen to you right where you are....no matter what.

[quirky]

Oh, Joel's not close to settling down. We did have a good chat, though.

[Janel]

It's good to reconnect with old friends....

[quirky]

They had it easy in the Garden of Eden. Not as many people to keep track of. But I don't know that I totally buy that whole scenario. There would have had to have been incest for it to work.

I have been a bad one at keeping in touch with folks and that's something I've started to change.

Today at church, a woman from our town, I still don't remember everyone's name...(this is where I grew up, but we moved away when I was young...and there is a chance I would even move away in the future)...said, "I still remember you getting us to that concert in Washington, DC."

I don't remember. I remember the free outdoor concerts, but I don't remember that she said I stood up to my dad and said, "Yes Dad, we have to go to the concert! I guess with my hands on my hips."

I don't know where that assertive girl went. I wish I could find her again.

[quirky]

Janel will like this: I have, sadly been estranged from one of my brothers since after my father died. Heated words had come, mostly from him and he was in town recently. In the past I have somewhat avoided him when he was here, but this time was different. I saw him and it was good to hug him and catch up. You only have one family. I totally forgive him and even shredded a quite nasty email his wife sent to family here about me some time back because it's just too hard to hang on to bitterness.

Grandma invited them to supper here and I read Philemon, Paul's appeal for Onesimus shortly beforehand. It was like my own father was talking to me. We just happened to have all the ingredients to make an onion pie, which is one of the things that my Dad used to make and in fact, had made for his step-son's rehearsal dinner.

It was a nice night and it's so good to be close to my brother again.

[searching_for_sunshine]

quirky,
i am happy for you that you and your brother have made amends. one of my brothers and i are in a similar situation but our rift is caused by his wife (the woman is literally certified insane and lives in her own little world and makes up scenarios that she makes my brother believe as reality too - pretty sick stuff). i have prayed for years for God to take away my bitterness towards this woman but to no avail. she literally makes my blood pressure go up just thinking of all the horrible things she's done to my brother and our family. i know that when it's time, my heart will change and maybe there will be peace between us but for now that doesn't seem possible.

[quirky]

Oh boy. I was the same way. It feels good to let go of the rancor. I was really really injured by my sister in law...but maybe when we change a little, the other person changes, too.

I NEVER thought this would ever happen. And it wouldn't have if Jesus hadn't changed my heart.

Read Philemon and see if you can reach out, at least to your brother...just to see how he's doing.

It reminds me of "Tuesdays with Morrie". What if something happened tomorrow and things were left unsaid and the love which is just kind of hanging uncharged in the air now, never gets recharged.

Recharge the love.

[searching_for_sunshine]

...i'd carry the guilt to my grave if that happened (at least for my brother)...

it will happen, i know my heart will change when it's time. i find there's always more i need to learn...it really bothers me on a human level though that i can't accept her. i can forgive him but i haven't been able to forgive her. i'm very tolerant and easy-going but that synapse does not fire in my brain when i deal with that woman. human nature=weird thing.

thanks for the support

[quirky]

Why wait? You know what I did? Really there was a lot of rancor...a LOT of mean things said....the situation is very similar to the one you describe.

I just called up and said, "You know...we have been estranged for too long." She was on the line too. The words just came. I can't explain it, I can just say it was so liberating and I am so grateful to God for opening my eyes, because nothing but good has come as a result of healing that rift.

It hurts when someone who is supposed to love you, hurts you instead...the pain is almost all-consuming. But what she did doesn't have anything to do with me. My heart is right. I have always known my heart is right. It just took making the step. And some of the things that were said at the dinner really opened my eyes to the fact that maybe my brother realizes how wrong things were, too.

It just takes forgiving...which doesn't mean that you have to give them everything you have...or that you don't feel any pain...but that you no longer allow them to have a power over YOU because of the pain you hold inside.